Did OP basically summarise another blog post and publish it on their own blog, even though the original is linked? Not a good look, also because it's "narrated" in the first person, as if they were the one to implement this change.
I started by writing a Python grammar definition based on PLY (see http://www.dabeaz.com/ply/) , then tweaked it to handle the new feature and emit the right AST. It's when I discovered the following was valid Python:
>>> a=b=c=d=e=1
>>> del a, (b, (c, (((((d,e)))))))
I don't think PLY can handle the newest Python grammar, but I haven't looked into it.
You could argue that this is not merely adding syntax, but also adding the associated semantics.
Anyway, if you found this interesting, you might enjoy Eli Bendersky's blog post from nearly 15 years ago where he adds an "until ... do" statement to Python.
That blog post seems a lot more involved - it adds code to the bytecode compiler as well as to the parser.
I suspect that’s mostly because the `until` statement is more complex - but another factor seems to be Python’s change in parsing technology from LL(1) to PEG.
Yeah, this is the kind of material that shows that any attempt to prevent/hamper meta-programming or punt it to preprocessors is at best misguided. It also feeds the smug Lisp weenie within me.
Above all the wonders of Lisp's pantheon stand its metalinguistic tools; by their grace have
Lisp's acolytes been liberated from the rigid asceticism of lesser faiths. Thanks to Macro and
kin, the jolly, complacent Lisp hacker can gaze through a fragrant cloud of setfs and defstructs
at the emaciated unfortunates below, scraping out their meager code in inflexible notation, and
sneer superciliously. It's a good feeling.
-- iterate manual, A.1 Introduction
For all of the syntax features Python has been adding over the years, this would be a nice enhancement: making the "else None" optional in the ternary if-expression. E.g.,
spam = eggs if bar
# vs
spam = eggs if bar else None
So if "else None" is omitted, if bar is false, then does spam == None or is it unmodified? The former is what I think you want, but that would be very confusing.
In Ruby, the `if [condition]` modifier at the end of a line is used for more cases than just assignment. For example, `return if s.blank?` and `raise "invalid" if input.length > 100`. In Ruby, this pattern makes it clear that the statement is only executed if the condition is met.
I'm not advocating for this feature to be added to Python, just explaining why it's not confusing in Ruby.
Though I used it for 2 years of it as my primary language at work, I never quite got used to Ruby's quirky idioms like this. It just reads badly to me, in terms of quickly understanding code flow, to have statements that start with "raise" or "return" which might not raise or return. Similar to the up-thread comment about assignment.
Perhaps using a parenthesized assignment expression with the walrus operator would be unambiguous:
(spam := eggs) if bar
I think that seems reasonable? It would act just the same as it already does with an explicit `else None`, if I'm not mistaken. I don't find it beautiful though.
Do we really need more syntactic sugar? Frankly, I am still confused why Python is going for a separate syntax for if expressions instead of just making its regular ifs into expressions
There is an advantage of having this as syntax, which is a difference in semantics, which you couldn't get if this would just be an expression, namely:
x = func1() if something else func2()
In this example, only func1() or func2() is being called, but not both.
Other languages do this sort of thing, so certainly it "would work". But it's very much counter to the design and aesthetics of Python.
Python is intended to enforce a strong distinction between statements and expressions (`:=` notwithstanding :/) because it sidesteps a lot of questions that one might otherwise ask about how it's intended to be parsed (including by humans).
Being able to write something like your example makes it harder to figure out where the end is, figure out what happens if there's more than one statement inside an `if` (do we only consider the result of the last expression? What if the last thing isn't an expression?), etc. By the time you get to the end of understanding what's happening inside the block, you can lose the context that the result is being assigned to `x`.
At the other extreme, everything is an expression, and you have Lisp with funky syntax. But Python holds that this syntactic structure is important for understanding the code. I sense that this is part of what "Flat is better than nested" is intended to mean.
It's way to late to fix the "statement vs expression" bug in Python's design.
We could have done that in the v3 switch, but we decided to spend man-centuries of effort on chasing already deprecated legacy Windows Unicode semantics instead.
Be aware, however, that the inner circle will use you, take your contributions, and, if you develop own opinions, publicly ban and defame you without any possibility of setting any record straight.
pyhton-dev is a corporate shark tank where only personalities and employer matter (good code or ideas are optional).
That's a pretty strong claim, (and since most inner circles are hard to get into, I even assume it's not without any basis in reality), yet could you please provide some exhibits to support it?
The inner circle emerged after GvR resigned. It largely consists of people who haven't contributed that much to Python3 (sometimes nothing at all in terms of code).
The members occupy different chairs in the PSF, Steering Council and the all-powerful CoC troika. They rotate, sometimes skip one election and then come back.
Their latest achievement is the banning of Tim Peters and others:
Tim Peters is just the tip of the iceberg. Many bans are private, intimidation is private.
Steering council members can insult, bully and mock others without any CoC consequences for themselves and keep getting elected. That is how you know that they are in the inner circle.
There are about 90 core developers who can vote. At most 30 of those are active and have any clue of what happens on the issue tracker or discuss.python.org.
For the other 60, if someone was friendly to them 30 years ago, they still think he is a awesome chap even if he is now a venomous bureaucrat.
Approval voting is used, and SC members often sail through with just 30 of 90 votes. The pool of candidates is limited due to lack of interest and the perception that only the inner circle will somehow get the required low bar of around 30 votes. Also, people are intimidated since the SC ruins careers and gets away with lying.
The whole thing has the dynamics of a high school party where somewhat popular people dominate the scene and a handful of intelligent people stand in the corner and wonder where the popularity comes from.
The issue is whether the dominant people in a project are still reasonable after your 100th PR!
Being nice to new people is a standard tactic for any divide-and-conquer organization. The politicians get more followers and get free positive comments on the internet that drown out criticism. The politicians don't have to work (some of them literally never did in CPython) and can pose as leaders and managers.
That's probably an argument for a language with good DSL support.
When this comes up I usually link to the work of Alan Kay and others (the very mystical sounding STEPS project at VPRI)
"""
The big breakthrough is making it easy to create new DSLs for any situation. Every area of the OS has its own language (and you can just add more if you feel the need) so that the whole OS including networking and GUI is very compact, understandable, and hackable. This particular project focused on compactness, just to prove that it is quantitatively more expressive.
"""
Codecs (https://docs.python.org/3/library/codecs.html) can change the content of the file on the fly. You can abuse that to create new syntax, although it is evidently not the original intent.
Let's say you hate significative spaces, here is a (very fragile) PoC for your pain:
The idea is you can register a custom file encoding, analogous to built-in file encodings like utf-8, and use it to transform the source file before python loads it. An example is pyxl, kind of like jsx, where you put `# coding: pyxl` at the top and then it will transform bare `<html>` in the python file into calls to a template builder: https://github.com/gvanrossum/pyxl3
Incidentally this turns out to be super hard to search for without asking an LLM, since "python coding" is so overloaded, and using the feature this way is intentionally undocumented because it's not really what it's for, and not something I think most python users really want to encourage. So, forbidden python knowledge!
If you place `# coding: utf-8` on the first line of a Python script, it'll try to interpret the raw bytes contained later in the file by passing them through a relevant codec[1]. Since the codec receives the raw source and transforms it before any interpretation happens, you can (here's the point I'm starting to guess) supply a codec that parses the code, transforms the AST, and dumps it back to the source for execution. It would be similar to how "parse transforms" work in Erlang, though there you're handed AST and not bytes.
You're Lisp-baiting, aren't you? ;) I'd add Elixir next to Nim (already mentioned); also Rust. Recently, also Scala.
The reason we don't have such metaprogramming available everywhere is mostly because you have to subscribe to a particular ideology to allow it. If you think programmers are generally intelligent and responsible, you put macros and metaclasses in your language. If, on the other hand, you think most programmers are dumb code monkeys (with a few exceptions, maybe) your language becomes like early Java or early Go.
Since you mention it, Python does have a fairly elaborate metaclass system, but it seems like it's only really used for implementing the language and rarely if ever wielded by "users". I guess that's a reflection of the language ideology you're talking about.
Also for what it's worth, I know myself to be a dumb code monkey, but being in the CRUD gutter doesn't preclude me from looking at the metasyntactic stars.
That dichotomy is interesting considering Guy Steele’s Growing a Language talk and his Scheme background. But maybe just mentioning Scheme is misleading here...
Thanks for bringing it up. I had a good read. I agree entirely with Steele! It's ironic, however, that it's written in the context of Java - he mentions just three features that would make Java growable: generics, operator overloading, and value types. We all know how it went: generics were added sometime later, but there's still no operator overloading, and value types came to the language 20 years after the talk :)
You can almost do it with `condition and value`, but you get `False` instead of `None` (and adding any more code makes this worse than `value if condition else None`. Interestingly lua like `<condition> and <true-expression> or <false-expression>` ternaries actually work in python, with the added footgun that <true-expression> must be truthy and people will despise you).
Rust for example has a solution for this in std, there's a `bool::and_some` method (and `bool::then` that takes a closure to avoid eagerly evaluating the value), but `if { ... }` isn't an expression like `if { ... } else { ... }` is, probably to avoid coupling the language to `Option`.
I meant more than it already is, I referenced this: https://stackoverflow.com/a/43339003. I do think it would be neat but it's niche enough to not be worth the non-obvious behavior of boxing with `Option`, e.g. you might forget an `else { ... }` and get complex type errors.
The linked, more detailed post in the article is far more interesting: https://miguendes.me/what-if-python-had-this-ruby-feature
Did OP basically summarise another blog post and publish it on their own blog, even though the original is linked? Not a good look, also because it's "narrated" in the first person, as if they were the one to implement this change.
...it's not, although I have to say, I really appreciated the succinctness of OP's article versus the original.
In the bygone era of 2008, I had fun adding Perl/Ruby-style pattern matching.
See http://www.dalkescientific.com/writings/diary/archive/2008/0...I started by writing a Python grammar definition based on PLY (see http://www.dabeaz.com/ply/) , then tweaked it to handle the new feature and emit the right AST. It's when I discovered the following was valid Python:
I don't think PLY can handle the newest Python grammar, but I haven't looked into it.For what it's worth, my Python grammar was based on an older project I did called GardenSnake, which still available as a PLY example, at https://github.com/dabeaz/ply/tree/master/example/GardenSnak... .
I've been told it's was one of the few examples of how to handle an indentation-based grammar using a yacc-esque parser generator.
You could argue that this is not merely adding syntax, but also adding the associated semantics.
Anyway, if you found this interesting, you might enjoy Eli Bendersky's blog post from nearly 15 years ago where he adds an "until ... do" statement to Python.
https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2010/06/30/python-internals-ad...
That blog post seems a lot more involved - it adds code to the bytecode compiler as well as to the parser.
I suspect that’s mostly because the `until` statement is more complex - but another factor seems to be Python’s change in parsing technology from LL(1) to PEG.
I sometimes think it would be fun to do “do: ... where:/while/until”, wherein the “where” part does local bindings.
there is a nice "staticscope" package in python, which acts as a context manager, and does pretty much what you refer to. pretty neat.
https://pypi.org/project/scoping/
This is where Lisp-like languages excel with macros. An example in Clojure:
Yeah, this is the kind of material that shows that any attempt to prevent/hamper meta-programming or punt it to preprocessors is at best misguided. It also feeds the smug Lisp weenie within me.
do..while is also the example used here https://www.tcl-lang.org/man/tcl9.0/TclCmd/uplevel.htmlGreat post!
I have worked on a similar series of CPython customization articles that you might find interesting:
https://github.com/pkolchanov/CustomizingPython
For all of the syntax features Python has been adding over the years, this would be a nice enhancement: making the "else None" optional in the ternary if-expression. E.g.,
So if "else None" is omitted, if bar is false, then does spam == None or is it unmodified? The former is what I think you want, but that would be very confusing.
Yeah, it would be confusing. In Ruby, this would leave spam unmodified.
That's even more confusing. There's an =, I expect an assignment to happen. Maybe we just leave this one alone.
In Ruby, the `if [condition]` modifier at the end of a line is used for more cases than just assignment. For example, `return if s.blank?` and `raise "invalid" if input.length > 100`. In Ruby, this pattern makes it clear that the statement is only executed if the condition is met.
I'm not advocating for this feature to be added to Python, just explaining why it's not confusing in Ruby.
Though I used it for 2 years of it as my primary language at work, I never quite got used to Ruby's quirky idioms like this. It just reads badly to me, in terms of quickly understanding code flow, to have statements that start with "raise" or "return" which might not raise or return. Similar to the up-thread comment about assignment.
Perhaps using a parenthesized assignment expression with the walrus operator would be unambiguous:
(spam := eggs) if bar
I think that seems reasonable? It would act just the same as it already does with an explicit `else None`, if I'm not mistaken. I don't find it beautiful though.
[dead]
I almost never use None as the second value here. From my POV, that would be new syntax for an unlikely situation.
Do we really need more syntactic sugar? Frankly, I am still confused why Python is going for a separate syntax for if expressions instead of just making its regular ifs into expressions
There is an advantage of having this as syntax, which is a difference in semantics, which you couldn't get if this would just be an expression, namely:
In this example, only func1() or func2() is being called, but not both.I do not understand why
Would not work. At least that is what I imagine when it is said "make if an expression".Other languages do this sort of thing, so certainly it "would work". But it's very much counter to the design and aesthetics of Python.
Python is intended to enforce a strong distinction between statements and expressions (`:=` notwithstanding :/) because it sidesteps a lot of questions that one might otherwise ask about how it's intended to be parsed (including by humans).
Being able to write something like your example makes it harder to figure out where the end is, figure out what happens if there's more than one statement inside an `if` (do we only consider the result of the last expression? What if the last thing isn't an expression?), etc. By the time you get to the end of understanding what's happening inside the block, you can lose the context that the result is being assigned to `x`.
At the other extreme, everything is an expression, and you have Lisp with funky syntax. But Python holds that this syntactic structure is important for understanding the code. I sense that this is part of what "Flat is better than nested" is intended to mean.
This doesn't work because the if statement is a statement. Statements don't evaluate to anything in Python, so you can't assign it to x.
Hence "make it an expression"
It's way to late to fix the "statement vs expression" bug in Python's design.
We could have done that in the v3 switch, but we decided to spend man-centuries of effort on chasing already deprecated legacy Windows Unicode semantics instead.
This is literally just a short tutorial helping people get into the cpython codebase. This feedback is off topic.
Related to your comment, though: Python has had this syntax for a VERY long time.
I never knew this syntax worked in python 2 and 3
Great, now you have the dangling else in python, the one thing that actually was solved by significant white space.
This is a cool article. If you want to understand how to contribute to python there is a guide at https://devguide.python.org
Be aware, however, that the inner circle will use you, take your contributions, and, if you develop own opinions, publicly ban and defame you without any possibility of setting any record straight.
pyhton-dev is a corporate shark tank where only personalities and employer matter (good code or ideas are optional).
That's a pretty strong claim, (and since most inner circles are hard to get into, I even assume it's not without any basis in reality), yet could you please provide some exhibits to support it?
The inner circle emerged after GvR resigned. It largely consists of people who haven't contributed that much to Python3 (sometimes nothing at all in terms of code).
The members occupy different chairs in the PSF, Steering Council and the all-powerful CoC troika. They rotate, sometimes skip one election and then come back.
Their latest achievement is the banning of Tim Peters and others:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234180
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41385546
Tim Peters is just the tip of the iceberg. Many bans are private, intimidation is private.
Steering council members can insult, bully and mock others without any CoC consequences for themselves and keep getting elected. That is how you know that they are in the inner circle.
thanks for the details and links!
how they are getting elected? who can vote?
There are about 90 core developers who can vote. At most 30 of those are active and have any clue of what happens on the issue tracker or discuss.python.org.
For the other 60, if someone was friendly to them 30 years ago, they still think he is a awesome chap even if he is now a venomous bureaucrat.
Approval voting is used, and SC members often sail through with just 30 of 90 votes. The pool of candidates is limited due to lack of interest and the perception that only the inner circle will somehow get the required low bar of around 30 votes. Also, people are intimidated since the SC ruins careers and gets away with lying.
The whole thing has the dynamics of a high school party where somewhat popular people dominate the scene and a handful of intelligent people stand in the corner and wonder where the popularity comes from.
It is all a deeply unprofessional setup.
That's not at all my experience. I contributed often to CPython by filling many issues and also one PR, and the whole process was very reasonable.
The issue is whether the dominant people in a project are still reasonable after your 100th PR!
Being nice to new people is a standard tactic for any divide-and-conquer organization. The politicians get more followers and get free positive comments on the internet that drown out criticism. The politicians don't have to work (some of them literally never did in CPython) and can pose as leaders and managers.
>Condensed version of this cool blog post.
The effort is very much appreciated.
If only there was a language that let you modify the interpreter on the fly so you could do this as part of normal execution...
Python can actually do this using "# coding:", albeit less elegantly than lisp.
I would say it's a good thing, I don't want to see a hundred of half baked, badly tested and vaguely document DSL with no decent tooling support.
That's probably an argument for a language with good DSL support.
When this comes up I usually link to the work of Alan Kay and others (the very mystical sounding STEPS project at VPRI)
""" The big breakthrough is making it easy to create new DSLs for any situation. Every area of the OS has its own language (and you can just add more if you feel the need) so that the whole OS including networking and GUI is very compact, understandable, and hackable. This particular project focused on compactness, just to prove that it is quantitatively more expressive. """
comment by sp332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11687952
final report from 2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11686325
Can you provide some more info / links regarding the “# coding:” feature? I wasn’t able to find anything.
Codecs (https://docs.python.org/3/library/codecs.html) can change the content of the file on the fly. You can abuse that to create new syntax, although it is evidently not the original intent.
Let's say you hate significative spaces, here is a (very fragile) PoC for your pain:
https://0bin.net/paste/42AQCTIC#dLEscW0rWQbE70cdnVCCiY72VuJw...
Import that into a *.pth file in your venv, and you can then do:
You also can use import hooks (python ideas does that), bytecode manipulations (pytest does that) or use the ctypes module (forbiddenfruit does that).Still, I'm very happy it stays limited to super specific niches. Big power, big responsibilities, and all that.
The idea is you can register a custom file encoding, analogous to built-in file encodings like utf-8, and use it to transform the source file before python loads it. An example is pyxl, kind of like jsx, where you put `# coding: pyxl` at the top and then it will transform bare `<html>` in the python file into calls to a template builder: https://github.com/gvanrossum/pyxl3
Incidentally this turns out to be super hard to search for without asking an LLM, since "python coding" is so overloaded, and using the feature this way is intentionally undocumented because it's not really what it's for, and not something I think most python users really want to encourage. So, forbidden python knowledge!
It's specified in PEP 263 [0] which pulls up easier on search if you quote it and include the typical "special comment symbol" -*- around it.
[0]: https://peps.python.org/pep-0263/
If you place `# coding: utf-8` on the first line of a Python script, it'll try to interpret the raw bytes contained later in the file by passing them through a relevant codec[1]. Since the codec receives the raw source and transforms it before any interpretation happens, you can (here's the point I'm starting to guess) supply a codec that parses the code, transforms the AST, and dumps it back to the source for execution. It would be similar to how "parse transforms" work in Erlang, though there you're handed AST and not bytes.
[1] https://docs.python.org/3/library/codecs.html
>how "parse transforms" work in Erlang, though there you're handed AST and not bytes.
Oh, I didn't know about this. Was thinking about doing something similar in my own language, so I'll have to check that out.
You're Lisp-baiting, aren't you? ;) I'd add Elixir next to Nim (already mentioned); also Rust. Recently, also Scala.
The reason we don't have such metaprogramming available everywhere is mostly because you have to subscribe to a particular ideology to allow it. If you think programmers are generally intelligent and responsible, you put macros and metaclasses in your language. If, on the other hand, you think most programmers are dumb code monkeys (with a few exceptions, maybe) your language becomes like early Java or early Go.
(Isn't lisp-baiting the raison d'être of hn?)
Since you mention it, Python does have a fairly elaborate metaclass system, but it seems like it's only really used for implementing the language and rarely if ever wielded by "users". I guess that's a reflection of the language ideology you're talking about.
Also for what it's worth, I know myself to be a dumb code monkey, but being in the CRUD gutter doesn't preclude me from looking at the metasyntactic stars.
That dichotomy is interesting considering Guy Steele’s Growing a Language talk and his Scheme background. But maybe just mentioning Scheme is misleading here...
Thanks for bringing it up. I had a good read. I agree entirely with Steele! It's ironic, however, that it's written in the context of Java - he mentions just three features that would make Java growable: generics, operator overloading, and value types. We all know how it went: generics were added sometime later, but there's still no operator overloading, and value types came to the language 20 years after the talk :)
Why would I want to extend the language syntax as part of normal execution?
Try Nim's macros.
You can almost do it with `condition and value`, but you get `False` instead of `None` (and adding any more code makes this worse than `value if condition else None`. Interestingly lua like `<condition> and <true-expression> or <false-expression>` ternaries actually work in python, with the added footgun that <true-expression> must be truthy and people will despise you).
Rust for example has a solution for this in std, there's a `bool::and_some` method (and `bool::then` that takes a closure to avoid eagerly evaluating the value), but `if { ... }` isn't an expression like `if { ... } else { ... }` is, probably to avoid coupling the language to `Option`.
Option is already a lang item, so that would t be an issue. I don’t know what the actual underlying reason is, or if it was ever even proposed.
I meant more than it already is, I referenced this: https://stackoverflow.com/a/43339003. I do think it would be neat but it's niche enough to not be worth the non-obvious behavior of boxing with `Option`, e.g. you might forget an `else { ... }` and get complex type errors.